Inclusion leads to innovation

In this episode we are delighted to talk to Mary Elliott. Mary is the managing partner of city law firm Fox Williams and a partner in the corporate team where she heads up the Publishing & Digital Media practice. She regularly advises on mergers and acquisitions in the publishing and information industries as well as on day-to-day legal issues facing content-rich businesses including content acquisition and licensing as well as supply chain issues and the potential impact of AI. Mary has been partially sighted since birth and speaks on accessibility issues across a wide range of sectors. She is currently a trustee of the Royal National Institute of the Blind having previously been a trustee of the Nystagmus Network.

Transcript

Prerna

Welcome to another episode of Accessible Finance by Project Nemo. I'm Prerna and joining me is my co-host, Whitney Simon. Our guest today is Mary Elliott. Mary is the managing partner of city law firm Fox Williams and a partner in the corporate team, where she heads up the publishing and digital media practice. She regularly advises on mergers and acquisitions in the publishing and information industries, as well as on a day to day basis.

She deals with legal issues facing content rich businesses, including content acquisition and licensing, as well as supply chain issues and the potential impact of AI. Mary has been partially sighted since birth and speaks on accessibility issues across a wide range of sectors. She's currently a trustee of the Royal National Institute of the blind, having previously been a trustee of the Nystagmus Network.

Mary, thank you so much for joining us. And why don't we get started with the big picture. And it's really, in your view, how does accessibility go beyond being just a solution? And how does it really become a powerful driver of innovation in today's world?

Mary

Thanks, Prerna. What a great place to start. I think I'm always surprised by how few people understand or recognize that connection between accessibility and innovation. We forget that so many things that we all take for granted today were actually born out of an accessible need. So you think about audio books and the huge growth of audible, and I'm a lover of audio books, but they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for talking books, which were the service first started by the RNIB shortly after the First World War, two service blinded soldiers.

The other story I love is that one of the first typewriters that's believed to have been created was invented by an Italian who wanted to enable his secret blind lover to send him letters without having to take them. And then you think about SMS texting, and that was invented to really serve the deaf community in that communications. And just think how powerful texting has become today.

Probably the most dominant way in which all sections of society communicate. And the list just goes on and on. So innovation is about solving problems, and so many problems that need to be solved are out accessibility in its fullest sense. So accessibility has always been that powerful driver of innovation. But in many ways it's just not talked about.

It's just not recognized. And the truth of the matter is that any product or service, if it's in, is to say that's great. But in order for it to be as successful as it can be, it needs to be accessible to as many people as possible. So there's this constant interplay between accessibility and innovation. It's already there. So it's driving each other, but it's just not recognized enough.

Whitney

Wow, that's so interesting, Mary. All of those different kinds of anecdotes and all of these things that we just kind of take for granted and are just part of what we do, not even recognizing the history of it. And I think this is why it's so important, having these conversations to raise that awareness and kind of help people recognize that disability inclusion isn't a nice to have.

It's literally what has built the society up until this point and what's needed in order to continue on that. But building on that, how do you see the expectations of the younger generation influencing the development of products and services? Do you feel as though they're raising the bar for accessibility expectations?

Mary

Absolutely. I think once something becomes acceptable, it gets adopted by more and more people. But that starts at the younger generation of that generation, who are far more open to experimenting with different ways of accessing the products, of using services. In my legal work, I do a lot of work with publishers and digital media, and what we see is that it's the younger generation who are experimenting in how they absorb content, how they learn, how they interact with services on a personalized level.

They want to be able to do this when it suits them in multiple formats and all sorts of multimedia channels. So they want to be listening to a podcast. They want to be telling theory to advise them on the next show that's coming on, and that it's that teaching of user experiences is just going to grow. The businesses who will capture that younger generation as it gets older, as the needs change will be the most successful.

What I find interesting is this idea that we're creating this generation who get to pick and choose how they absorb content and how they interact with services. But as they get older, they're going to face more and more accessibility issues. By I think 2035, the number of blind or partially sighted people is due to increase by 30%, and by 2050 it's expected to double.

So we've got a generation of people who are expected to encounter more and more sight loss problems. And I can only imagine the indignation that services are going to face when those individuals can't access the services or products that it's so used to accessing in their personalized way. For so long now, accessibility has been about a one stop shop.

A one size fits all solution for a particular disability. And what we're now seeing actually, is that's not going to be good enough. The younger generation will not only want to be able to access services that enables them to overcome any disability hurdle, but they'll also want optionality and what that looks like. And so the demands on accessibility, what that actually means, that individualization of user experience is going to change the accessibility environment dramatically.

Prerna

I think that's a really important point, right? I think a lot of the businesses think about accessibility very much as a push kind of need. But actually what you are saying is we are living in a day and age where the way customers pull the products and services is what's going to drive what businesses need to really think about.

Right. So stop really looking so inward out, but really start thinking about outwards in kind of a thing. So, so, Mary, I think given your own personal journey of being partially sighted, could you tell us a little bit about what it's like living with, with this condition and how maybe it has shaped your perspective on accessibility, both kind of in your personal life, but more so, in your professional life, given the kind of big scope of role that you have and the industry that you play in.

Mary

Absolutely. So, as you said in the introduction, I've been partially sighted since birth. And just to explain a little bit, I was born without a proper left eye. So I actually wear full side, my left side. I'm completely blind there. And then I have a condition called nystagmus, which sets the limited vision I have left in my right eye.

But the truth of the matter is, I'm incredibly lucky because I can fake having normal vision. And that's partly because I have a fantastic oculist who create this left eye that a lot of people don't realize is fake. When they meet me. But also, I do have a reasonable amount of vision. And in a very, very narrow field, I have very good vision.

So I've been faking it. I've been able to get by and live with most people, thinking I've got the better vision than I do have. The problem with that is it does come at a significant cost, both in terms of health and probably my sanity. Pretending to be able to see more than you can see is absolutely exhausted.

Having to make do with limited vision in a fully sighted world is very difficult. But as I say, I'm lucky. I've got a reasonable amount of vision, but it's only been recently. I've fully understood the personal impact it's had on me, but the personal impact it has on people with disabilities. To be living in a fully abled world, they have to work doubly hard just to stand still.

They have to have huge amounts of willpower, patience and resilience and actually huge amount of flexibility and lateral thinking because without realizing it, they're having to learn and adapt to new habits every day when they encounter things that everyone else takes for granted. So when I'm at work, I always smile. Everyone I come across walking down the corridor, and indeed, I randomly walk around the streets of London, often smiling at people because I'm not sure if it's somebody I know or not.

And I've. In the past I've been accused by friends of blanking them in the street, so I just come across warm and friendly and smile. Everyone hoping I might get a smile back and realize who it is in due course, I make assumptions about who's coming towards me by their height, by the color of their clothes. There is a partner at work who often, when it's very hot in the summer, wear bright red shorts.

Really helpful. I can see him a mile off. When I cross the road, I blindly follow somebody else. I use other people as a guide because I can't see how fast cars are moving. And ideally when I'm going down stairs, I really prefer to follow somebody else because I have no depth perception whatsoever. So you pick up all these little tricks.

But to do that, you need to be using all this energy and it finds somebody who helps you do that, who makes your life just a little bit easier. You grab onto it and you have a huge amount of loyalty. One of the problems I've come across by being able to fake it is that when I do try to explain what I can or cannot see, some people generally think I'm making it up.

They say, oh, just look a little bit hard. It's think they're on the left, come on. And the number of times I've just said, oh yeah, I see it now because that just makes life so much easier. If somebody you know, supports me, recognizes me on that. They're my friend for life. So there's a loyalty pull. I think with disabled people it's hugely understated.

So I've always been about enabling people and services kind of enable people. You will have a lifelong bond. For me, it's e-readers and Kindle and that was a life changing moment for me. I grew up in a family who loved to read and it was always a bit of a struggle. But I love books. I love stories when I got my first Kindle and I could choose to read in landscape to enlarge the format, it revolutionized my experience.

And I have to say on every publisher's dream, because not only will I buy the e-book, but I love having books on my shelf at home. I never actually open them, but they're the perfect decoration in my flat, so publishers might double the money out of me, but it can go the other way. And when I've had a bad experience, businesses have lost me for life of a customer.

So quite recently, a news app that I subscribe for provided an update, and it meant that the enlarging software I use didn't work as well. And I canceled my subscription. I've gone elsewhere and I can't see myself going back for very, very long time because I found something else. So it really is for me. My personal journey has enabled me to understand the power of having, you know, superfans who businesses because the disabled community can be that super fun super customer.

Because if you give them something that makes them their lives just that little bit easier, that yours for life, really?

Mary

Well, that's that's really interesting. And the point that I really love is kind of just that additional burden when it comes to kind of navigating the world in this way and how, you know, I think there is there is power in being able to kind of assimilate, but then also kind of that ongoing burden of in every in every room or in every situation, there is a level of like mental gymnastics that needs to be done in order for you to kind of navigate.

And and that is part of why kind of accessibility, inclusion is so important. So that it doesn't mean that when you're trying to engage in a space, you have to do X amount more than someone else. And also to your point, I also love to buy books just so they're on my bookshelf. So I'm right there with you.

I also have a Kindle, one that my partner bought me and is like, you know, you could also just buy them there. And I was like, yes, of course. But I guess you've talked a bit about some specific moments in instances where things have been challenging, but were there any or I guess, out of any of those experiences, were there any specific moments in your life that really changed the way that you thought about accessibility?

And then really pushed you to start advocating for it more strongly?

Mary

Yeah, and I think there are probably three experiences that strike them both, but they all kind of point to the same aspect. But there's a growing understanding of what access to stuff ability looks like. And my earlier point about the individual aspect of accessibility for disabled people, and the first one for me was, and I'm sure it's the first for many people with some disabilities, it was public exams and I went through school without really additional assistance.

And the problem was one of my eye conditions and I struggled with is it gets worse of stress. So you can imagine a kind of 16 year old going through their GCSEs without any additional support. I can remember one paper is my history GCSE paper and I could not read it properly. The words move but moving around the page and unsurprisingly, I didn't do as well in that paper as I did in other papers.

When I got to A-levels and life as an older teenager, and the stresses and drama of all that kind of made my eyesight worse. The teacher said to me, well, why don't you have extra time or in large papers? I didn't know that was an option. We are talking many years ago now and hopefully most educational institutions are a bit better.

But my parents didn't really understand that this was a possibility. So I went into my A-levels and I got the 25% extra time and I got ridiculously in large papers sometimes on day three and never sat on the exam desk. And I then went to university, and the university was far better at recognizing accessibility need they that generally great institutions for helping disabled students.

But I kept a book saying I'm partially sighted and they said, oh, you can have 50% extra time. And I did my first, year exams. And I sat back and I've got too much time. I'm not under pressure. This isn't this isn't right. So I went back and said, could you give me less time? But that shows, again, this individual need for assessing what individuals need in terms of accessibility.

We still have this like one stop shop approach. I should add that having messed up my history in GCSE things, when I did get the support, I came out of university with a first. So I think it does show what, the power that your accessibility has. The second example, was when I just started work in a city law firm and we were, offices on the top floor on the buildings in Canary Wharf.

I think it was the 38th floor. And again, I took this box saying, I'm partially sighted and the health and safety personnel came round to me and said, we need to talk through your fire evacuation process. So when the fire alarm goes, you need to go and lock yourself in this fireproof room and the farm, and we'll come and get you.

And I thought, oh, no, I can take the stairs just like anyone else. Why on earth would I want to stay? And it just it never occurred to me why? Why shouldn't I? And I had to have quite a fight. Say no. I can get down stairs. Fine. Yes. I prefer to follow someone down. But it was. I pretty much triggered some disability and some help on the health and safety protocol.

Said you need to go to the disabled evacuation room. And I thought that's a nonsense. So that was something that made me realize there needs to be far more talk about the individualization of accessibility. The last one was the, one of my first job interviews with a magic circle of, I was answering one of those awful questions of transferable skills and give an example when and I said, oh, you'll see from my form that after school I went and did, some hiking in Nepal.

And before I could get any further, the partner said, oh yes, I saw your done that. But how did you do that with your partially sighted? And I thought, oh, and it put me on the back foot. And so I was trying to kind of justify it. And it goes back to that point to about certain people thinking I might be faking it or, you know, egging on.

They don't understand. And then you said, oh, because you don't look partially sighted. And at that point, I wish I'd been brave enough to take out my full saw and put it on the table or do something dramatic. Sadly, I wasn't brave enough at all. But it really goes to show this kind of lack of awareness about the individual experience.

And that so those three examples of things that really have probably made me passionate about opening up that dialog further.

Prerna
Oh, no. And thank you for sharing those experiences. So candidly, I think, I think couple of things that jump out for me. One is there is this almost expectation that the individual needs to find a way to adapt to the society versus that the society, and almost like the society doesn't have any responsibility here. Right? They're almost kind of trying to abdicate their own responsibility in terms of what they should be thinking about to create the right kind of environment.

But I think this concept of hidden disabilities is an important one. Right? I think, there are so many biases. But when it comes to when we think about disability, what does it look like, feel like, and what the experience is like. And if it's not obvious, it's not visible, then, you know, we all end up asking some really idiotic questions and behaving in really bizarre ways.

But in my language there. But it is a bit idiotic in, in in how we, we, we interact. So I think that brings me to the question of, you know, what is the role of the society, but specifically, I guess, regulation. Right. And and just bringing it back to, the industry that we operate in, and the jurisdictions we kind of look at, we have heard about this thing called the European Accessibility Act, or EAA, which is supposed to bring accessibility standards into focus and hopefully start, you know, driving some of that change that we are talking about with respect to what is the role of the society at large, rather than it all being on the individual to adapt. So what impact do you think this this particular regulation will have on society, but specifically on financial services, both in terms of compliance, but more so in terms of culture, because at the end of the day, you know, you can meet minimum standards and get away with it. But the change through change only comes when you fundamentally change the culture of the organization.

Mary

I love the fact that a lot of people are talking about the EAA. It has kind of captured, you know, concerns and the dialog is fantastic, and financial institutions are looking at it seriously and it is on the radar. I have to say that actually, for a long time, the kind of high street banks and the larger institutions have actually been quite good at providing information in various form, particularly applying research approaches to people.

But what they've been very poor at is actually that user experience accessibility for actual products. I have a number of blind friends and colleagues at the R and I, B, and the number of times I've witnessed them having to disclose their Pin number to a friend or a shop keeper, because the chip and pin inaccessible is astonishing. That is getting rarer and rarer.

But what I think I find most frustrating in a way, is that we have been going through, and it's still going through this incredible tech and digital revolution, particularly in financial services. But for blind and partially sighted customers, all the disabled customers are getting left behind when actually that tech and digital revolution should be enabling better accessibility. And what is good about the EAA is it is primarily focused on digital and consumer facing sectors, and financial services falls squarely in the middle of that.

So it's right in the crosshairs. So out of all the sectors that have been impacted by the EAA, I think it is in the financial services sector that we can hope to see most change. But one of my concerns about the AA and I don't normally say that about EU legislation, but it's actually quite prescriptive. Normally the EU, when you think of things like GDPR and data protection, it comes to at a very principles based approach.

Now, the EEA is far more kind of dogmatic and prescriptive about certain services, about certain products like terminals and user interfaces. And I do worry, as you say, that encourages the tick box exercise. So while it's great that it's kind of pushing the conversation forward, I don't think it in itself will change culture enough at all.

Whitney

That's really interesting in it. It kind of nicely starts the conversation. And on the next question I have in terms of whether regulations like E are enough. So it sounds like, you know, it is a stepping stone, but there still needs there's still more that needs to be done. What can organizations do or companies do to truly integrate, you know, accessibility beyond as what you just said, those tick box compliance measures.

Mary

So the ears you say it's not going to change the world. It's not going to be the dial, but it's going to help it. So we shouldn't underestimate that. The conversation that we're having today is what is going to change things. It's a project like Project Nemo. It's the kind of drive of the ESG agenda. We have a great time, I think, in commercial history, for accessibility to really come to the forefront, but for accessibility to be implemented into the financial services sector.

One of the things we find time and time again, for it to work, it needs to be at the very start of any process. And we're going to go through this quite difficult period of is trying to retrofit in accessibility into their existing products, and that's only ever going to create a kind of baked end point. When you retrofit that accessibility into things, you're not thinking about the end to end user experience.

So there's no point in having a fantastic mobile app if every bit of that app has slightly different accessibility features, because it's all been updated at different times. Funnily enough, I do think the people who can make the biggest difference in terms of accessibility in financial services are those who are at the forefront in startups, at the fintech, and particularly in the UK.

Think we've got one of the most vibrant, dynamic scenes of fintech. But interestingly enough, they're probably the ones least likely to be focused on the EAA because they're looking at the UK market as a staff member to get off the ground. So we've got this kind of weird juxtaposition of, well, this is great legislation, but the people who could best implement it don't need to yet.

So we've got to try and get that dialog happening quicker. But I don't have a solution as to how to do that.

Prerna

And that's an interesting conundrum. Right. And then we I think we see this across the board in a lot of different aspects where companies which have the agility and ability to drive change sometimes are least likely to do it because of whether it's commercial pressure or whether they're in scope for something, or whether because they feel like, you know, their target market doesn't actually benefit from this.

So I know you guys have recently hired somebody and, you know.

Probably have had to go through, some kind of change, both kind of, practical, but also mindset change across the organization. So can you share a little bit about that experience? You know, what the experience has been both for the individual but for the organization. What what have you noticed? The organization has learned, by hiring someone with disability.

Mary

It has been absolutely fantastic. And the individual knows I'm talking about them today. So not the slide thing. Anything. They're not not happy with. I think what's been so fantastic about is how seamless it has been. And I don't know what kind of Batson I look now. This individual is blind and they use a cane and they're very open about their disability.

But within kind of, you know, hours of him arriving, it was kind of perfectly part of you know, it's just part of the furniture. It was fantastic. I think what it's really done, though, is it brought home to people just how capable and indeed more than capable those people with disabilities are. Going back to my points about those skill sets they have to have just to navigate the world.

When you can remove the hurdles for them to perform in the workplace, it's incredible. It really is. I'm astounded by it. I always really, really hate the phrase of wow. For somebody who's blind and partially sighted, they're really impressive. That's the wrong way round. All of my experience have led me to believe that those who have disabilities do it.

Wow. They're really impressive. Full stop or wow, they're really impressive. They've probably become that way because they've got this disability. And I'm not one of those people who likes to talk about disability as a superpower. People do, and I completely get that. But I do completely understand having a disability if you're able to or have the support to build that resilience and adaptability, you can really break down your own barriers.

It's incredible that early initiation of people into the workplace to enable them to deliver kind of release and those skill sets for the benefit of the organization.

Whitney

Absolutely. I completely agree. And it keeps, as you were talking, some of the parallels and like the DNI work that that I do it kind of that comment. It's like the same thing when it comes to like racial different racial backgrounds, right. Like there's so impressive for X. And it's like, no, they're they're just impressive. And if we create spaces that truly foster inclusion and gives them the space to really thrive, like it's incredible what can happen.

So I completely agree, I guess from a, a tangible perspective, what were some of the things that your organization adapted to support this new hire? And I guess in the time that this new hire has joined, has there been any instances where you've come across specific challenges in creating a truly inclusive environment for them?

Mary

Some of the challenges kind of arose before they joined, and I think that was what interested me the most in that he knew what he needed, and he was very good articulating the reasonable adjustments. And I knew the team were talking about what needed to be done, and somebody put their head around the door and said, oh, merry, can I just check a couple of things?

You know, they've asked for, two laptops, one for the office, one from home. What? Why can't they just have one? And I kind of thought, well, I don't know. Personally, I assume it's because transporting one to and from the office when they're having to navigate something that's already quite difficult. Also having to plug it into their big screens at home or in the offices, it's hard if you can't see how to do that.

And so I said that this individual and I said, yeah, that's the other point. Why do they need big screens if they can't see? And I thought, oh, wow, I've been working in this organization now for 12 years. I clearly not been an advocate enough to explain what visual loss can mean. And I had to explain, well, do you know that only 7% of you know those who are registered blind have no visual?

And that was an I know to this person they didn't know. And then I said, and also, you do realize that if somebody doesn't have vision, the way the navigating is by text to voice, and so you need to move your mouse around the screen to identify the words. Can you imagine what that's like to do on a small screen?

You know, I wouldn't be able to. And I think that's the thing we've perhaps struggled with is not really understanding individual needs think. And that's the problem with society to the extent that I was being asked, unless I am very fortunate in the amount of eyesight I have, I cannot tell you what this person means. Talk to the pair.

And I have to say, that's what's been great. It's the dialog and encouraging people not to be afraid. This individual is very open about his eyesight. He has a blog about it. It's fantastic. And that's really helped. You know, that's people even when I think it was the the interview process, I had other partners who have done the interview said, oh, we're going to do it online now.

Should we say we should do it with screens off? Because we know you don't like using screens, but. Well, yes. I don't like using screen too much because it fatigues my eyes. But actually he might I know a lot of of blind and partially sighted people prefer doing zoom calls than meeting in person, because actually they can get really close up to the screen and have a slightly better idea of what people look like.

So again, it was about the individualization of the experience and understanding that different people, although he and I both fall in the blind and partially sighted bucket of completely differently.

Prerna

This is great. I think this also has parallels with what Chris Chris Foster, who is one of the co-founders of Project Memo, talks about, is when you hire somebody with disability, the biggest change, there are two big changes that happen right on. You start getting people to open up about their own experiences. But more importantly, there is this fear factor that a lot of people have if they have never worked with or interacted with people with disability, and they start leaning into it and start actually driving the dialog, which then starts removing the unconscious unconscious biases and starts creating the right kind of awareness.

And that's really powerful. Right. And, and I think, that's exactly what kind of it sounds like the experience in, in, in your organization that's been Mary, this is a topic I think we can talk about forever. Right? Like it's a never ending conversation. And, and actually, some of the things you have shared with us have been so tangible and so specific.

It's been absolutely fantastic. So I guess my last question really is if if we could make a change, we could change one major barrier to accessibility in workplaces today. What would that be and why?

Mary

I don't think this is necessarily the answer you're looking for, but actually, I think one of the biggest barriers is actually the absence of role models in the workplace. For those with disability. That's not something we can change overnight. So it's not a barrier we can remove. But for many, many years, I've been very conscious that the role models for disability that often encourage credibly talented athletes and comedians and politicians, and they are incredibly impressive people, and they're playing such a pivotal role in raising awareness of disabilities and what that means in reality and what can be achieved.

But there are very few out and out disabled people within the corporate world. And I it's something I'm personally trying to lean into more because there is nothing more powerful. And I think we see this in the DNI agenda generally. There's nothing more powerful than seeing somebody or hearing somebody speak who has had a journey that could be similar to yours.

And I think when people can see that and it's not just disabled people seeing role models, it's all of society recognizing that that's perfectly achievable. Why did we ever think that was a problem? That would be a great change to see.

Whitney
That's incredibly powerful. Yes, representation. People understand the power of it. But thank you so much, Mary. This conversation has been so helpful from kind of just the anecdotes that you've shared, sharing your personal experiences. I think, again, as you said, having these conversations, really talking about what needs to change in society are one of those things that can help move that needle forward.

So really appreciate your time and kind of helping to enact that change. It's been a pleasure having you on the podcast, and I know that our listeners will also enjoy hearing about all your experiences and perspectives, too.

Mary

I very much for having me.

Prerna

And thank you to all our listeners for tuning into Accessible Finance by Project Nemo. We hope you found this episode insightful and inspiring. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and stay tuned for more conversations about making finance accessible to everyone. Thank you.

And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in to Accessible Finance by Project Nemo. We hope you found this episode insightful and inspiring. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and stay tuned for more conversations about making finance accessible to everyone. Thank you.